With renewed enthusiasm in Irish whiskey, it is not surprising that interest in Ireland's other national spirit, poitín, has not been far behind. With a history that goes back hundreds of years, this once illegal spirit has always been seen as the drink of the people. To understand the spirit better, its history and future, we talked to Dave Mulligan from Bán Poitín about craft distilling, the potency of poitín, and of course the cocktails you can make with it.

Thanks for joining us, Dave.

Oh, you're so welcome. Thanks for having me on, Tiff.

Now, some may consider poitín to be the Irish version of moonshine. Is that how you would define it?

I get that one a lot, and hey, each to their own. I mean, it has a shared history, all right but I like to think that moonshine was, inherently, it was always made to get around the law. It was always an illegal spirit, whereas something like poitín in Ireland, we were making that for hundreds and hundreds of years before they actually banned it. So while it shares an underground history behind closed doors in blank label bottles, it was definitely part of the culture for a very long time. And actually longer than whiskey because it's where whiskey came from. So moonshine might be a little bit degrading to us.

How do you explain the recent popularity?

I mean, I think I have to take a lot of credit for that myself Tiff, because when I got into poitín, I'm eight and a half years working in it now almost exclusively. I've been a bartender for 20 and in the drinks industry probably... The behind the scenes drinks industry for as long as I've been in poitín.
But nobody really knew what it was. And I was living in London where we introduced it to the market over there to the cocktail scene, where most bars wants something new. There they're always eager to try things they haven't. And it was really our success in London that led to it becoming more of a thing in Ireland. And then we have some really great brands, two brands in particular, really given the state a good push. So it's getting out there, it's taken time, but between my brand, Bán Poitín, Mad March Hare, Glendalough and Micil, there's a good crowd of young entrepreneurs really pushing the category.

Now, before that bar in London, had you heard of the spirits? Had you been exposed to it before?

Sure. Sure. So I'm Irish born and bred, and you'd be very hard pressed to find an Irish person, especially of my age and above, who did not encounter poitín growing up. It's so synonymous with the culture. I first tried it accidentally when I was 11 picking up an unmarked water bottle in my mother's cake shop, of all places. She had a business making cakes and they used to rub it on the cakes before they iced them to keep that flavour in, you know, high proof spirit. So as it was illegal, it was always in an unbranded water bottle or a Seven Up bottle, or whatever it was. And little old me took a big old mouthful thinking it was something else. So that was my first encounter with it. But yeah, it pops up throughout the culture all over. Weddings, funerals, wakes, fairs, stuff like that.

I'm surprised you weren't turned off from it by taking a swig that large.

You know, gin turned me off. I purposely drank gin when I was about 13. I didn't touch that again til I was about 20. But no, poitín didn't scare me off. Now it's surrounded with a lot of mystique in Ireland. It has a really rogue reputation. It's almost like the absinthe reputation of old, that that's loopy juice, it'll turn you crazy, stuff like that. Mezcal shares a lot of similar misleading stories going around about it. But an Irish mother would be given out to you about even the idea of drinking poitín while she's pouring it into her tea. You know?

Now, you were talking about poitín being in effect of the grandfather of whiskey. Can you talk to us a little bit about the differences?

Well, I mean the clear as day difference is brown and white spirits. So poitín is an un-aged white spirit. I think legally now the new law is we're allowed to flash it in a barrel for 10 weeks, which we've experimented with, with Bán. And we did some awesome Islay cask and lovely oakey ones. But we were always trying to tap into that shared culture.
So whiskey really moved away from being a community spirit when it became industrialised and commercialised. So poitín was always made in small communities, never traveled far and wide. There would be at least one, if not a couple, of seasoned distillers in the town. Generally female as well, I must add. But yeah, whiskey would have moved out of that kind of rural landscape up into the big cities in Ireland. And you I know we're on a foreign podcast, so people always laugh when we say that Irish whiskey used to be the biggest in the world. But we really were, we were out-selling the Scots 20 to 1 in our heyday, seventeen, eighteen hundreds. But that was coming out of cities whereas something like poitín came out of a very rural setting.

Other than the not ageing in wood, are there differences in the way the two spirits are produced?

Yeah. I mean, clear as day, no because they're both coming out of pot stills. The majority of poitíns are fermented grains, predominantly barley like a whiskey. But what you're trying to do, and anyone with a bit of distilling background will know this, if you're trying to make the spirit palatable and drinkable on the first run off the still, where you're not putting it in barrels and laying it down, you have to be so much more careful. You got to take your cuts a lot more careful, you've got to clean the spirit up. If you were putting a heavy, heavy whiskey distillate into a bottle immediately ... there's a reason the world doesn't drink white whiskey, you know? If there was, Diageo and everybody would be pumping this stuff out because it's so fast and fairly cheap to make whereas something like poitín, you really have to take your time. You got to be hands-on, there's a lot of trial and error. And just to give you an idea of who... A lot of people mistake raw spirit, quickly distilled spirit, for high alcohol, especially in the kind of poitín world, whereas to get it right we run our stills at a third of the speed we do for doing the whiskey, just to extract that heat out of it. And with that, obviously, becomes man hours and energy bills and the cost does go up drastically. But when it's going straight into the glass, you really have to get it right. Yeah.

I was about to say, as it doesn't have the oak to smooth the rough edges, it must be really difficult to actually distill it to a point where it is palatable.

It is. Yeah. I mean, look, white spirits... It's a white spirit with a lot of character. It really tastes of where it came from. But the good distillers, the skilled distillers, Graeme Millar is my head distiller up in Echlinville Distillery. It took us a year to nail the liquid, but we nailed it, whereas a brand like Micil poitín coming out of Galway, Micil is six generation illegal distiller. So he has a family recipe that he's stuck to. And he produces a fantastic, almost... I want to say some poitíns are similar enough to mezcals, maybe sotols with that smoke, whereas Pádraic's brought something out that's actually very similar to tequila, albeit a quite raw, unrefined.

You mentioned earlier that most are made with malted barley, but for Bán Poitín, you've also added potatoes, sugar beet. Can you tell us why you did that?

Yeah, I mean, that was actually a good lead into that because I just mentioned Pádraic. Pádraic, he's a good pal, and I love his brand, I love his liquid, I really wish him all the best with it. There's no real competition in poitín yet, but he has that fantastic heritage of six generations. And I think in the spirits world and the whiskey world, a lot of people just come out of the marketing room with that story and it's not true.
And I didn't want to mislead. I wasn't going to say this is an age-old recipe. My father never made poitín. He drank a lot of the stuff, but he never made it. So we have to go at it our own way. And when I first teamed up with Echlinville, I said, "Look, I've been a bartender working with poitín for two years." And I said, "Look, I really love the white whiskey style, that new make, but it's so fierce. It's so raw. I don't want to lead with just a malted barley spirit."
And then potatoes, people... I think it's the name, poitín, and the similarity and the "P-O-T." People always mistake it for potatoes. Now, it is a small part of the modern history, but barley was definitely king. But we wanted to get potatoes a go. We couldn't believe when we found out in Ireland there was nobody had distilled potatoes in Ireland since the 1970s. So we were the first ones to actually do that. And then I was influenced by a potato poitín that was made in San Francisco, of all places.
Yeah, just a real curiosity, I'd found. And then the sugar beet was the most common, in the illegal production, was sugar beet and sugar beet molasses. So I wanted to do a nod to all these styles of poitín that I love, but while creating our own recipe.
So we actually do three fermentations and we do seven separate distillations, so it's a very complex process to get to where we are. But we do it, I suppose, because I'm a bartender and I'm a stickler for detail. And we just wanted to get it really right and create something that was truly ours.

How important are fresh ingredients, considering what you're putting into it?

Ah, yeah. Look, one of the reasons I partnered with Echlinville Distillery is they actually grow all their own barley, they malt all their own barley, so that hands-on approach and not real nod to the old, that would have been real poitín production. Was if you didn't grow the barley, your neighbour would grow it and you'd swap spirit back. And it was a very community feel that people would supply the distiller with the raw materials knowing that they would get spirit back, that they would get their cut, as it were. And so that traceability was massively important to me. You know?
So yeah, look, the Irish, we're fantastic at growing barley. That's why the whiskey is so good, and how it is coming out of Ireland. So people who wouldn't have access to growing their own, as long as they're using Irish, I think they're still doing the spirit justice.

Now, you spoke earlier about the history of Scottish and Irish whiskey running on a similar path. How come there isn't a Scottish version?

Well, because Scottish call it Cleric. They do make it, and they hate it getting out there because they would... They hate the legal white dogs or white whiskey getting out there because they think it'll turn people off scotch. But I think you have to look at their laws. They got a lot, a lot of tax breaks before the Irish did into whiskey production. So our whiskey production was getting taxed phenomenally for hundreds of years by the British, by the English, whereas Scotland, they eased the laws a lot earlier. So their whiskey industry got a chance to get going.
There's also the difference that they have... You can't swing in Scotland without hitting a distillery. I think there's 180, 190 of them, whereas Ireland, in our heyday, yes we did. But nowadays nowhere close.
But yeah, Ireland would have just hung on to it a bit more of the culture, the cultural aspect and the rebellious attitude towards the English. Irish whiskey, and you'll never hear this from within our industry, but Irish whiskey was a very, very British-controlled industry back in its heyday. If you think we were the biggest industry in Ireland, we were the second biggest spirit behind Brandy in the world, I believe. And if you wanted to start that industry in it in a heavily colonised country, you were generally playing ball with the boss. You would have been part of the crown, or at least working for them. So I guess Scotland just didn't have it as hard. I'm sure there'll be a lot of Scots open arms about that, but just didn't have it as hard. So it was the rebellious nation of the Irish.

As both spirits start to gain popularity in Ireland now, are they competing? Is poitín competing against Irish whiskey?

No, and I don't think it ever will or should. I've been saying this for years, that poitín is not trying to steal space on a back bar. Poitín is trying to create space on a back bar. It's not something that you need a whole collection of. Now, in Ireland I'm delighted to see people with three, four, five, and growing. We in Bar 1661, which we'll get onto, we have over 20. It's our USB of course, but we're just trying to slip in beside the whiskey. We'll let them fight it out, but we're really... It would be like mezcal. Does mezcal compete with tequila? Not really. They kind of compliment each other, and there's plenty of space on the shelf for both.

Without the dominant oak characteristics that most people know from whiskey, what should people expect when they first taste poitín?

Well again, it's all about that raw ingredients. You really are trying to play with the natural flavours there and let them shine. Now, people, you might think real pot barley can be quite a rough spirit. Well, I would say it is if you double distill it. But if you triple distill it, you got some really nice light, fruity flavours.
But generally it's an earthy vegetable, full of minerality, really, really nice, full-flavored white spirit. And then something like Bán, with the speed we do the stills, the potato, the sweetness of the molasses, it's almost like you want to chew it. It's a really full, viscous spirit.
So yeah, full flavoured. And we don't kid ourselves. We're not trying to be the next gin. We're not trying to be another vodka, which for some reason we get slated with being another vodka a lot. We're not trying to be that. This is a real drinker's drink. It's a spirits drinker's drink. It's a cocktail aficionado, somebody who is into the history, somebody who likes a story and a bit of culture behind what they're doing. So if they're crafting a cocktail in their bar, they've got really good interacting with the guest who's never tried this spirit before, because we've got a thousand years of history, we got 336 of them being underground. It's quite a naughty rebellious thing. So it's to embrace those dark sides. Yeah. But yes, we're not trying to be the next mass marketed spirit.

Now, you said that a lot of people compare it to mezcal. Are there similarities in the flavour?

No, I'm going to say no. I mean, we got that one a lot. And I think it slipped out from the Irish camp, and it's picked up kind of globally now. I would say, look, agave is such a magical, wonderful plant. It'd be very difficult to recreate that level of complexity of flavours that they can with that spirit. But I think what people mean in that it is a higher ABV, it is full flavour, it is a... It's a serious smack sitting down to poitín. I would put them in the same style of spirit, but no, I would say the flavours are different enough that yeah, you wouldn't compare.

Okay. Now, a lot of white spirits, moonshine, gin, vodka, have all experimented with adding flavours to the base spirit. Is that something that poitín will ever experiment with?

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there was a serious trend, and I still get dropped down on them all the time. There's a real... There's a lot of berries, Hunch Poitín, stuff like that. And a lot, a lot of infusions. And then we have a really interesting one that is actually quite common in the West of Ireland. It's a thing where people dissolve these strange biscuits into the spirit and then filter out the solids and you're left with an odd fruit and it ups the malt. It's strange, but people really seem to love it, and they're dropping down the ABV. So I haven't done it with Bán yet because we're just sticking to the spirit side, but it's not to say we won't. And then with Bar 1661 in Dublin, we're looking at a range of liqueurs now with poitín as the base. Obviously Irish focused, nothing global. But we do want to experiment with that, with native Irish ingredients, the way they really would have back in the day.

If people are drinking Bán for the first time, how should they approach it?

Sip it neat, definitely. Again, like mezcal, mezcal never... It doesn't suit a whiskey glass for me, I'd much rather sip a poitín out of a shot glass in very short sips. And then one of my favourite kind of ritual ways to drink it, the simplicity of it, I call it a Bán and Black, which is obviously Bán, meaning white in Irish, and then the black being a pint of Guinness in the other hand. So boilermaker style. That's a really good introduction.
And then if you want to try it in a cocktail, I think there's only one place to start, and that's our house drink at Bar 1661. That is something I've been using for Bán for a number of years, and that is the Belfast Coffee. So what we've done there is take your Irish coffee, your Irish coffee glass, classic. And one, we swap out that whiskey for a white spirit, stick with the Demerara Sugar, and then we use cold brew coffee instead of hot coffee, and we stir it down like a martini. And then same thing, double cream and nutmeg. But this drink is a phenomenal success. We were really onto something before this forced closure, but it out-sold Guinness in our bar. It had become such a ritual that everybody who came into the bar they'd kind of, "Two Belfast Coffees and the menus," was their first order.
So definitely sell fast coffee is something that I can see as finally being our Pisco Sour moment or our Caipirinha moment. Why do we have Pisco in craft cocktail bars? Why do have a Cachaça?Apart from them being great spirits, is they have very popular signature drinks that are very commonly called for. So you have to stock it to supply it for your guests.
So we hope the Belfast coffee... We've seen it pop up in multiple venues around Ireland, a few in America making it, a couple in London, and we've seen it at shows in Paris. So it's becoming something, and that could be a real catalyst to our success. Everybody knows what an Irish coffee is. It's leaning towards an espresso martini because of the temperature, obviously. And it fills a nice gap in the middle. But the simplicity of it is what will win us that battle. It's a cold Irish coffee with poitín instead of whiskey. It's not an Amaro from here and a bitter from here and an infusion from here. It's very concise and easy for the user, the guest, to understand what drinking.

You talked about coffee being a flavour that obviously works very well with poitín. If people are experimenting with cocktails, what other flavours do you think bring out the best in the spirit?

Do you know? It's a tricky one because we have a lot of depth and breadth and flavour in the categories, there's a few styles emerging. So I mentioned we were down to three distilleries. We've about 25 people distilling on the island. So white whiskey is starting to pop up a lot more and more as a poitín. But I would say that's the whiskey producers putting that out, which is fine because in its purest form poitín is that, a white whiskey.
But I think that the companies who I've mentioned before, Mad March Hare, Micil, myself with Bán, we're poitín purists. You know, we're not whitening on whiskey. So our spirits are in a very different style to the white whiskey. So if I had a white whiskey, I would go for that more stirred down brown, booze-forward cocktail. A bartender classic. Whereas something like Micil, I'm going to do that straight into a sour, almost a margarita-style drink. I know I have a beautiful one on the menu at the minute, we're using crabapple verjus. Really, really nice with Micil, but lean into more of a tequila.
And then mine would be much more earthy. But again, I like mine with a sour, things like pear, things like apple, they really lift the flavour. Elderflower. I know they're big crowd-pleasers, but they're also very native to Ireland. So that's what I like to stick with to elevate the natural flavour of poitín. Coffee. The reason coffee goes so well in particular with Bán is just there's a real earthiness to the spirit that plays to coffee's flavours.

In that vein, what would you say would be the most interesting cocktail made with poitín that you've seen a bartender do?

I mean, the most interesting... There's a lot. We've got one in the Savoy at the minute, which is pretty awesome. Just to have the Savoy drinking poitín. I'm trying to think. You've put me on the spot there. I got to go back to the Belfast Coffee because it wasn't myself who created that drink. It was Lucas [????], a bartender I worked with in London for a long time.
We were doing an R and D session trying to crack just that. And I think I was going on, I'd been working on that drink for about three years, this new Irish coffee, and I was doing everything except making Irish coffee. I was doing infusions in this, and I was making Guinness syrups, house syrups, coffee reductions infused with coffee, whatever I could do. And the end product never looked anything like an Irish coffee. We fat-washed the cream and everything. And it was going back to that super simplistic approach. And we just happened to be working with some cold brew, and that really was the eureka moment for me. And without doubt the best drink and the most interesting drink ever done. Why it's so interesting is its simplicity and why no one, even with the Irish coffee, had thought of doing a cold brew stirred version of this, given the popularity of the espresso martini.

When you drink poitín at home, how do you most frequently drink it?

I sip it neat. Yeah. I mean, I would start my day with it. I would generally have a Belfast Coffee if I'm in the bar, I'd have it at some stage during the day. But yeah, I sip it neat. And then I'd have a shot of it. Mine's 48%, I'm so seasoned drinking it, as are my immediate people around me that yeah, we would go for the shot or maybe you do your shot in two or three goes because the night can kind of take a sharp left with too many poitíns.

Well, with that in mind, what food would you pair with it?

Food's a really tricky one for me because a lot people... I know there's a lot of trends towards pairing cocktails and spirits, but I suppose the way I set Bán up, it's a bit of a rock and roll rebellious brand. It's got its two fingers up at the establishment. And I don't know if the whole DNA of what poitín is about, that hidden culture, that rebellious spirit, I don't know if...
It's not a connoisseur's club, so I try to avoid pairing it. I know some bars and restaurants here do some really interesting spirits chasers with Irish cheeses and meats, which is a natural fit. But if I'm honest, I could be putting them with wine. I can be putting them with whiskey. It's all about who's presenting to you and why they're there. So I don't personally do that just because it is what it is. You know, it's a bit rock and roll. It's a bit rough around the edges. So let's not pretend to be something we're not.

What do you see as the future of poitín?

That's a good question because it does change a lot. I think my partnership with Mad March Hare and poitín, my business partner on the bar is John Ralph, who owns Intrepid spirits, who own Mad March Hare. We partnered up three years ago. John has a global distribution network. He's big in Asia, he's got product in Australia, he's got product in the Americas, and all over Europe. And he saw value in me. My brand is a very small brand. I'm a company of one, and I got my amazing distillery partner at Echlinville.
But John saw a gap I could fill in being the poitín ambassador, and he saw value in that I needed to be on the road more and I have zero problem representing other people's brands as I talk, not just my own, because I think especially in the craft cocktail world, you need to introduce a bartender to a category. I can't just go in with my bottle and pretend that I'm the be-all and end-all of poitín when we have a thousand years of history and multiple, multiple people making it.
So I think that the partnership, definitely myself and Mad March Hare, but then even Micil, who owns his own distillery, so he's a very busy guy, but he's come along with us. There's a distillery in Killough in County Down is the smallest whiskey distillery in Ireland. He's piggybacking on us. So there's a real collective of brands working really, really closely together. Shared ideas, shared marketing, and a shared vision of where we're trying to get this thing.
So, like I said before, it's never going to be the next gin. It's never going to be the next wild fandango fad, but while Irish whiskey continues to invest, invest, invest globally and grow and grow... You know, that they're seeing fantastic results, especially out of Jameson, being led by Jameson. I think it's a really good time for us to piggyback on that success and say, "Hey," when I'm doing a sales call in another country, I'm not looking to get into a blended whiskey battle on who's got the rail. I'm not trying to take that single malt out and put this in. I'm just saying, "Hey, this will compliment your Irish whiskey selection. Here's three different poitíns. Have a little try."
And when I was selling this stuff in London, I used to bring other people's brands with me before the partnership. And I used to kind of finish all my trainings with, "Look guys, if I leave here today, I come back in a week and you've actually decided not to get Bán, but you've chosen one of these other brands, it's still a win for me, because we're getting poitín and on back bars, we're creating space, and we're getting it known as a category."
So definitely our community spirit and our willing to work together is really going to ride this one out. It's a very youthful spirit. Most of the producers are, I'd say, in the early days of their career in spirits. So there's a lot of energy around and there's a lot of good will. So long may that continue, and I think that will definitely be catalyst to its success.

Do you see poitín being little bit like a bartender's handshake, type of spirit?

In Ireland, yes, I can't see that going any further than Ireland. Very much a bartender's handshake. There was only select of friends. I would be putting up rounds, shots of poitin poured. But, yeah, it is definitely an industry thing, should we say.

Now speaking of industry things, your bar in Dublin called 1661, which is of course the year that poitín was banned...tell us a little bit about the bar and why you opened it?

The bar is ... the bar’s great. I mean we’re closed like everybody else but we’ve pivoted and we’ve moved into home delivery services but the bar was the result of, kind of what we touched on earlier, being in London and getting the category moving. We were really, really struggling in Ireland to have any sort of impact. We were completing against the global gin bubble, where what frustrated me was the everyone in Ireland was so preoccupied by the English national spirit, they forgot to think about their own.
I came back to Ireland mainly to prove a point, I wanted to do a pop-up in Ireland. Bartenders were telling me people aren’t interested, they don’t want to drink it, nobody is looking for it, we don’t want to stock it. And I said, you know what, I’ve had such success in a country where nobody knows what it is, I bet I can have even more in a country where they do. So, we did that for six weeks, in a friend's basement. Not a huge budget on it, but it was very experiential. We only sold poitín, no vodka, no gin, no whiskey, no Guinness, no nothing. It was only poitín. So, it was a real wow factor, but that popup was successful, not only, obviously, as a business venture, but as a marketing activity. I created more hype in six weeks, as a bar, than I had in six years, as a brand.
And it was a real eye-opener on how we had to activate this category in Ireland. And it meant me moving home. It meant me teaming up, solidifying my relationship with Mad March Hare and John Ralph, and opening the home of Irish poitín in Ireland. And then, because I've been in London so long and influenced by the cocktail scene over there, learning from the cocktail scene over there, I came back with clear intentions that I only wanted to open the best cocktail bar in the city. And, look, we won it year one. Awards only mean stuff to people who win them, but it was voted for by the industry and it was very flattering. And I think we were a real eye-opener of a bar, because we're staunch on our independent spirit, on what we believe in. We're only going to use poitín front and center, and then any spirit on our cocktail list behind that. It's always an Irish-based spirit. We gave everybody a share of the menu. Myself and John, the easiest thing to do would just be fill a cocktail list full of our own spirit. But, then we wouldn't be a poitín bar. We'd be a Bán bar. So, I said from the start, "Every poitín needs to get their space." So, I think, at the minute, Bán has two drinks on the list, whereas some other brands actually have three. Actually Regal Rogue vermouth, we're a big fan of that Australian vermouth, I think he's got about four drinks on the list. So, we just wanted to make it a really great cocktail bar first, with poitín coming behind that. Whereas the popup was poitín, poitín, poitín.

Obviously, Bán is available in Ireland. Where else can people find it?

We are in France, we are in the UK, obviously. I believe we've shipped some stuff to New Zealand in the past. And a lot of mules have brought it to Australia for me, because I have a brother in Sydney, and a dear friend in Melbourne. So, there's been many a bottle going down there. But America is a big focus for me, and we should have really been there now, but, obviously with everything that's going on, it's been put back 12 months, which is fine, because it makes more sense for everybody. But, I really hope to be in the states next year, and that could be the making of poitín. Obviously, it's such a colossal market, such a fantastic craft cocktail scene. And then the Irish heritage obviously goes a long way in the states, as 40,000,000, thereabouts, Irish people living over there.

And bars like The Dead Rabbit, and things like that.

And bars like The Dead Rabbit definitely don't go missed. Yeah. Those guys have been supporters from day one. In particular, Jack, he loves what we're doing. And they're a whiskey-focused bar, that's what they do, but they keep a close eye and they're always very supportive of Bán and of poitín, yeah.

If people want more information about the brand, I would normally say go to the website, but your website is under construction at the moment.

All my websites are down at the minute. Yeah. The bar... We were building this online store and we were rebuilding our website anyway. And I just told the guys, I said, "Look, the website's not a priority. Now we need the online store up, because we got to survive." And then we were working on Bán's website at the same time. So, just give us another maybe six or eight weeks until things level out. And all the info in the world will be on bar1661.ie and ban-poitin.com.
But, you can always check out our Instagrams, our Facebook, there's links to everything there and multiple articles. And there's been some great journalists all around the world... We've had some really great write ups. So, just Google away and plenty of stuff will pop up. The only thing is the Wikipedia page. I don't control it. Nobody knows who does, and he, or she, doesn't like when we try and edit it. So, don't go on the Wikipedia page.

Stick to your social for the moment.

Stick to the socials for the minute. Yeah.

Excellent. All right. Look, thank you for joining us, Dave, and thank you for taking the time.

Tiff, thank you. No, really appreciate it. Good to talk. And yeah, hopefully we'll see you in Bar 1661 when we're all able to travel again.

Well, that is the plan. Yes.